At 11:05 17/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi. I just completed the advanced course and am in the middle of a huge
>breakdown! Argh! Are they a cult or is it for real?
I do not classify them as a cult, though there are many similarities, and many of the individuals around are definitely in a "cult" mindset.
We, as humans, are so atuned to looking for "the answer", that we find it extremely difficult to deal with the possibility that there might not exist any "the answer", and tend to look at someone who says "there is no THE ANSWER" as himself having "the answer".
In my experience - now some 30 months since I completed the forum - it is for real.
The question then becomes - well what is the "it" of which I spoke ?
The it, for me, is a way of viewing existence, and my part in it.
It is a perspective on my own existence and functioning, which, when acknowledged completely for what it is, allows/opens infinite possibility.
In acknowledging that I am the trapped product of my rackets and winning formulae, something else becomes possible (while not detracting from me being the product of my rackets and winning formulae).
>Things have fallen apart this weekend for me and I just realized that
>since the forum that I haven't been getting things done. Is it all a
>deception?
Deception ? What are you deceiving yourself about ?
What has actually been present for you ?
Compile of list of things which are present in your life which have any of the following characteristics:
What is the truth ?
What is right ?
What is wrong ?
What are you defending (justifying) ?
What is untrue ?
What are you controling (dominating) ?
What are you avoiding ?
Complete the list.
All of the above have at their sources "Rackets".
Can you clearly distinguish the racket in each case ?
If you are not perfectly happy with the fact that you have these rackets - then you are running a racket about rackets.
No-one said you were going to become perfect doing the forum.
One of the things Dave Miles said to us early on, was that what would end up being good news, always started out as bad news.
The access to integrity in our lives is find out where we are out of integrity - and noone really likes finding out where they are out of integrity.
The bad news - it doesn't get any easier.
The good news - life is great when you do it.
>I am in the middle of the accomplishment seminar and I feel that I am
>not getting it. I don't have any sense of accomplishment in my life at
>all and I feel as though accomplishment has been taken away from me.
One of the things that often confuses people - don't confuse the messenger with the message.
None of the people I have met at Landmark profess to be anything other than human.
Don't "expect" forum leaders, or seminar leaders to be anything other than human. They will have rackets. They will not be above the very things they talk about.
In a way, it is a very endearing quality. You get to see rackets and winning formulae at work in your trainers, and for me it helped to distinguish those things in myself.
Where does the feeling that accomplishment has been taken away come from ?
What have you accomplished recently (include any accomplishments at landmark - they tend to take quite a few hours ).
>I am signed up to do the SELP in April, but I have also thought about
>backing out and giving up the Landmark thing as just another group
>trying to make a buck from people trying to "find it."
That would be your choice, and is an option.
What is being made right by such an attitude ?
What is the view of yourself which is surviving such an attitude?
>Any words of wisdom?
Wisdom ?
I'm just an extraordinary sort of a bloke living in a small village on a swamp, with a wife and 2 children, a couple of small businesses, an involvement in politics & community, a keen pilot, and a think-a-holic.
Wisdom - that's for the sages. I just deal in what works, and what is (except when I don't). ;-)
Hope this helps.
If you want to drop me some more notes, feel free.
I enjoy this sort of discussion.
Glad to see you looking at yourself again ;-)
>I was doing so (looking for "the answer") again and had called up a fellow
>Forum fan.. he busted me on this.. I'm glad!
We tend to do that to each other - coaching isn't it ?
>During my conversation today I was reminded that the accomplishment
They are upfront about that sort of thing at Landmark. They know that
most people would rather do anything other than confront their own story
about themselves.
Funny how effective those identities are at surviving.
Have you read Richard Dawkins' book on evolution "The Selfish Gene".
It's excellent, and combined with the Landmark work, offers some real
breakthrough insights <g>
>Well, we're right in the middle of the accomplishment course, and we
That's not entirely accurate.
You know what you have done.
I haven't done the accomplishment course - I didn't even know it existed,
but I have done quite a bit of work with Landmark - the Curriculum for
Living, CAP, CPP, IFLP.
My guess would be that you will get very much into specific and
measurable.
What goals did you set? Which did you achieve ? Which were over/under
achieved, and by how much ?
That sort of analysis is often very enlightening, when you sit down and do it
with integrity.
>> What have you accomplished recently (include any accomplishments at landmark
We tend to do that sort of stuff to continue the existence of some story we
have about ourselves (like "I'm not good enough").
When you start getting specific about things - it's easy to see where you set
impossible goals, that were not achievable.
There is a lot of power in knowing the difference between reality and fiction
- reality is often far stranger than fiction. An awful lot is possible, far more
than most people dream, but most people tend to put enough unreality into
their dreams to make them impossible.
>Me. Racketeer.
<<<<<grin>>>>
>I am glad you wrote back. My phone conversation today helped quite a bit
You mean you did a system upgrade without first doing a backup ?
Most of us do it at least once.
A few years ago I was working in the office just after New Year, when the
head crashed on my hard drive.
I thought, no problem, I did a backup recently - but when I started looking,
I had got so slack that recently turned out to be September 10. I was
looking at the loss of 4 months of work (I'm a programmer) - I hate re-
writing source code - particularly without notes.
I ended up reformating the first track, and rebuilding the FAT and
directories of my source code by hand. It took me 6 18hr days. I learned a
lot about hard drives, and even more about doing backups.
My source code is now on three physical machine (5 hard drives) in the
office, and on floppies elsewhere.
Now I do one most days.
I have backups at 4 physical locations - one of which is 300 miles away.
My upgrade systems ask clients if they have made a backup before installing
the upgrade. They have to change the N to a Y. Then it asks again - are
you sure - cause if anythings goes wrong and I have to fix it, I will charge
like a wounded bull to do it if you don't have a backup.
I think most of them have got the idea now. I haven't made any income
from botched upgrades in 4 years.
>I am the possibility for Freedom, Celebration, Love and Integrity.
Sounds great.
How about celebrating your existence 8-)
Cheers
Great to experience the change in tone of the last 3 communications from
you.
Your last was very much self-awareness and possibility distinguished as
separte from story.
>> Funny how effective those identities are at surviving.
There is a distinction there that may have slipped by.
We are racket and winning formula.
It is not possible for a human being to be anything other than racket and
winning forumula - that is the design of human being.
As well as our rackets and winning formulae, we carry around intepretations
of our past experiences (story) which we believe defines who we are (our
identity).
A human being is actually a free entity, with a past.
In the story which is our identity, our past defines our future.
As a self aware free entity, owning a past as our own, our future is
unknown and unlimited by our past. This can be both terrifying and
exhilarating.
One of the interesting epistemological outcomes of this Landmark work is
that whenever one discovers a paradox - it is a pointer to an approaching
paradigm shift, in which new paradigm the paradox resolves, and everything
makes sense again. I have undergone several paradigm shifts since starting
the landmark work. I see no indication that there is any limit to the number
of shifts available.
It appears probable that I will undergo further shifts in the future.
So - back to the original point. In the advanced course you did some work
on distinguishing story as story, and thereby letting it be free to be simply
story, and no longer being a determinant of who you be.
You also did a lot more work on Racket and winning forumulae, and it was
stressed at the time, that these do not disappear, they are all you have.
What the additional works gives isn't "life after rackets", it's more like
"learning to love your rackets", combined with "choose the appropriate
racket for your circumstances" (as opposed to having the rackets drive you
at entirely inappropriate times).
>> Have you read Richard Dawkins' book on evolution "The Selfish Gene". It's
It is definitely the most powerful book I have read in 30 something years of
reading, and many thousands of titles.
>> >Well, we're right in the middle of the accomplishment course, and we
Specific and measurable is a great tool. It allows one to clearly distinguish
between reality (that which has distance time, and form) and story (our
interpretation of reality).
{On another level we get to deal with that all we have is story, and story
about story, and get to be at peace with that also.}
>> What goals did you set? Which did you achieve ? Which were over/under
That is dealing with "expectation". Expectation is deciding how reality
"ought" to be - right/wrong in another disguise (Racket again).
>I discovered that I was afraid of specific and measurable because I was
Perhaps she just had an attack of her story (whatever it is), and decided (as
opposed to chose) the "safe route".
You have the choice to be bold, intrusive - utterly unreasonable - ask her
again. She can only say no. She might say no many times (it might be part
of her story that unless someone is willing to take at least x (where x is
1...n) rejections, then they aren't serious enough to be work spending any
time on). Who know's what story she has (she probably even doesn't and
no one else can possibly).
>> We tend to do that sort of stuff to continue the existence of some story we
Specific and measurable gave me a lot of trouble, until I tied it down to the
three basics:
Distance - where is it - what geographical location - lattitude and longitude.
Time - when - GMT - 03:44 hrs November 23 1996 - GMT or whatever
time coordinate you choose - but be specific. Next week isn't specific.
Form - what are it's make up, what dimensions, what material is involved;
all specifically measured.
When you have those three quantities tied down, you have something
testable in reality.
example -
A/ A four page response dealing with all of the financial risks of the
proposal I can define will be on your desk by 11:30 Monday.
That is specific. The content of the report could be further defined - but the
above is a good first shot at specific and measurable.
Once you get used to it - it gives amazing productivity.
Cheers
That's what I'm here for ;-)
>Ah, ok.. I am glad that I have found some email people to have forum discussions
That's the one <g>
>> One of the interesting epistemological outcomes of this Landmark work is
Close.
A paradigm is a way of thinking that is defined by the assumptions we
make.
We have no option but to think within a paradigm, and we have the ability
to re-define the paradigm we are using.
This happens quite often during childhood, but for most people slows down
in adult life. We take on "the truth" about how things are.
If something appears paradoxical - it is an indication that the paradigm
(model) we are using to model the world in which exist, is no longer
sufficiently accurate to meet our needs (paradoxes cannot exist in reality -
reality simply is what it is - paradoxes can only exist in our models of reality
- and indicate that we need to update the model to understand reality more
closely).
>> It appears probable that I will undergo further shifts in the future.
Amazing how many of us there were out there <g>
>> You also did a lot more work on Racket and winning forumulae, and it was
That sure helps. I have some very powerful coaches. I am a member of a
consulting group of 43 IT professionals - 42 of whom have done the forum,
about 20 of whom have completed the curriculum, about 12 of whom have
dome IFLP, and about 8 of whom are actively coaching in advanced
landmark programs. One of them usually gives me a hint - I have an open
invitation for any of them to coach me if they believe it appropriate
(coaching only works if requested).
My wife has also done all the program I have.
Know what - we still "get on it" with each other - not very often, nor for
very long, but it happens.
>> Specific and measurable is a great tool. It allows one to clearly
Yup. It all comes back to what is real. Landmark work is ultimately
pragmatic - it deals in what works.
>> That is dealing with "expectation". Expectation is deciding how reality
You'll find they're a recurring variation on a theme in most of the Landmark
work.
They are a powerful tool.
It takes some time and a lot of practice to become a master in dealing with
them.
After a couple of years I have found that I am able to coach forum leaders
(not nearly so often as they coach me but <<g>>>).
>> >I discovered that I was afraid of specific and measurable because I was
You're onto it.
>> You have the choice to be bold, intrusive - utterly unreasonable - ask her
Yeah - it gets real interesting.
The whole story thing is completely recursive - you can follow your tail for
hours if you get into some deep meditation on this one.
>> Once you get used to it - it gives amazing productivity.
You're welcome.
I can gurantee I wasn't the first to tell you this.
I am honoured that you chose to listen to me at this time.
After a while - when one starts dwelling in "empty & meaningless" on a
regular basis, it is truely amazing how much great stuff people have been
telling us all our lives, yet we never actually listened - our "already/always"
got in the way.
Re-reading some of the classics, from empty and meaningless, can be quite
an experience.
>Well, it's 21:10 EDT (5 hours east of gmt) and I'm outta here finally!
You're getting the hang of this unreasonable stuff <<g>>
At 10:12 18/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>> If something appears paradoxical - it is an indication that the paradigm
Yep.
A paradox is usually quite obvious.
It is when you have a seemingly contradictory statement which may never
the less be true.
Quantum Mechanics has a few - at least under the Copenhagen
Interpretation.
To see an interpretation where the paradoxes are removed have a look at:
Landmark resolve the paradox of "I am an individual with free will, yet I am
conditioned by my environment to behave in certain ways."
>> After a couple of years I have found that I am able to coach forum leaders
You're doing great. Just keep on looking, and asking the difficult questions.
Accept nothing without testing it yourself - this is one of the fundamentals
of both science and Landmark teachings.
>> >Yup.. maybe she got hurt (which is story, but she doesn't know that..)
ROTFL - we get pretty basic when we get threatened. We suddenly find
our behaviour is that of a two year old. When in doubt - revert to trusted
patterns - seems to be how our operating system works.
I'm getting reasonably good at re-writing some of my kernel code <g>
>I was caught in a racket loop this weekend! That's for sure!
Not for the first time, yet this time was different, in that it is now
distinguished as what it is - the response of an automatic routine, set into
your kernel years ago - having identified it as such, you can now place
interupts to catch it in the future, and determine whether or not it is
appropriate.
Thank you for your coaching and kind sentiments.
You too seem like a great guy interested in making differences in people's lives.
You've already impacted mine.
Sometimes I feel like the FORUM is not present within me.
I get stopped and upset and find that I am looking for answers to give to people.
Trying to heal them.
Absolve them of their crap.
I have already transformed many people's lives by me just being who I'm being.
I am waiting for some epiphany to happen for me, you know?
Selfish, is that?
Life is confusing to me and I don't know what it is I truly want.
My direction has not become clearer due to this work and my love life is in utter shambles.
Am I not taking responsibility for something?
You wrote:
Sometimes I feel like the FORUM is not present within me.
That is the time to choose responsibility, or not - in either case the consequences will be yours to deal with, so you might as well get the consequences you want.
There is only any point in giving people answers if they are looking for them.
What is their sickness?
Is it sickness, or simply a possible way of being?
A possible way of being, without judgement, is very different from a sickness - implying judgement. ie you are being right, therefore love is absent.
See comments immediately above. "Crap" is a highly judgemental call.
It's just their stuff.
Like you and I have stuff - all people have stuff.
Stuff can be different in the particulars, and it shares a commonality in the fact of
being stuff.
Having done the forum, or even being a forum leader, doesn't absolve people of their stuff, if we're lucky it may change our relationship with our stuff, and with the stuff of others.
Great - accept that for what it is - evidence that you can make a difference.
It can and will happen, whenever you get to the space where you accept your stories as your stories without judgement (as to their relationship to TRUTH), and just let them be your stories.
Similarly you just let your perceptions be your perceptions - not "the TRUTH".
Then look (without looking) for the quiet place within you, where your nothing resides, and experience the absolute peace of the infinite within.
For a nanosecond or two, you may be able to synchronise with it, before your stories come back to do what they must.
On a sustained basis you can change your relationship to the stuff you have, and that others have, mentioned above. Changing the relationship doesn't take the stuff away - nothing can do that - "stuff" is part of being human.
Yes and no.
All entities must give unto themselves first and formost.
Giving unto self does not necessarily entail taking from any other.
The most effetive way is to give unto self while giving unto others.
Selfishness, practiced in full consciousness of self and all others, can be the most beneficial of thought modes possible.
Self thought without thought for others is destructive of relationships - at all levels.
You must meet your own needs.
The only way to avoid confusion is to attain infinite knowledge. I don't plan on doing that for some time to come ;)
I kinda like being a human being - with all of our mortal frailties.
Life is not about your wants or desires.
If you live a life of your wants, then you are a tool of your rackets.
To choose, in full consciousness, to meet your needs while also meeting the needs of others, adds to the existence of all.
Should you do this? - No, and you could.
Is there a right way of being? - I don't believe so.
Do some choices produce outcomes that increase the joy experienced by yourself and others? Certainly.
Do you have to choose them? No, and you could.
For no other reason than you choose (anything else is a decision - remember).
To go somewhere, it helps to first know where you are going.
What do you think?
>seminar was supposed to be difficult in the end and that people would want to
>leave it.
>have identified our "old definition" of accomplishment as our stories about
>accomplishment. We haven't yet done much to say what accomplishment
actually
>IS yet, so for me, right now, there is no such thing.
>> - they tend to take quite a few hours ).
>
>Well, completing the advanced course (I am using the "old" definition of
>accomplishment.) Landing a new job (I'm in the "two week notice phase")
>etc.. That's about it. I haven't gotten much exercise lately. I'm too
>busy "doing stuff." to get "other stuff" done. Maybe there's too much
>"stuff to do" and I'm loading my plate too much.
>as did some food.. I've been sitting in a computer room all weekend long
>trying to recover a system from a failed upgrade. I don't think I will
>attempt a future upgrade on this system this weekend. Blecch.
>
>Yeah, same old story was popping up that I had "gotten rid of" in the
>advanced class.. although the "past" part of the story still seemed gone.
>> excellent, and combined with the Landmark work, offers some real
>> breakthrough insights <g>
>
>Nope.. but I'll put it on my list of books to get!
>> >have identified our "old definition" of accomplishment as our stories about
>> >accomplishment. We haven't yet done much to say what accomplishment actually
>> >IS yet, so for me, right now, there is no such thing.
>>
>> That's not entirely accurate.
>> You know what you have done.
>> I haven't done the accomplishment course - I didn't even know it existed,
>> but I have done quite a bit of work with Landmark - the Curriculum for
>> Living, CAP, CPP, IFLP.
>>
>> My guess would be that you will get very much into specific and
measurable.
>
>Actually, we haven't set anything specific and measurable (but the advanced
>course was all specific and measurable.. or s&m for short ;-) )
>> achieved, and by how much ?
>
>Well, funny thing is, we pick a goal, then we be with it and find out what drives
>us, then we make it ok that it does happen and make it ok that it does not happen,
>then we have it be ok that the future is pure possibility and then we let go of
>each item on our list. That's all we have so far..
>afraid to fail. I did ask a lady out and she said yes :-) but later on she
>changed it to no :...-( Looks like she wasn't authentic that first time around.
>> have about ourselves (like "I'm not good enough").
>>
>> When you start getting specific about things - it's easy to see where you
>> set impossible goals, that were not achievable.
>
>Yeah.. I still need to set some specific and measurable results. However,
>sometimes when I or someone else in the course had set one, they would be
>asked "well, what's specific and measurable about it?" when it seemed to
>me that it was perfectly measurable. I did not quite catch what they were
>getting at.
Q/ When will you send me that response ?
>Thank you.. I didn't notice, but you did!
>with.. it's empty and meaningless!
>> that whenever one discovers a paradox - it is a pointer to an approaching
>> paradigm shift, in which new paradigm the paradox resolves, and everything
>> makes sense again. I have undergone several paradigm shifts since starting
>> the landmark work. I see no indication that there is any limit to the
>> number of shifts available.
>
>Hmm.. I don't have a clear vision of what "paradigm" means other than
>possibly it meaning "way of thinking" or "thinking methodology."
>Off base or close?
>>
>> So - back to the original point. In the advanced course you did some
work
>> on distinguishing story as story, and thereby letting it be free to be
>> simply story, and no longer being a determinant of who you be.
>
>Right! I am no longer "geek who will be lonely the rest of his life."
>> stressed at the time, that these do not disappear, they are all you have.
>>
>> What the additional works gives isn't "life after rackets", it's more like
>> "learning to love your rackets", combined with "choose the appropriate
>> racket for your circumstances" (as opposed to having the rackets drive you
>> at entirely inappropriate times).
>
>Hmm... ok. I sure was letting my rackets drive me this weekend!
>Sheesh!
>Next time: I call someone.
>> distinguish between reality (that which has distance time, and form) and
>> story (our interpretation of reality).
>
>ah, so that's the reason for the reality conversation.. it ties in with
>specific and measurable.. that's why they keep asking if something is
>specific and measurable!
>> "ought" to be - right/wrong in another disguise (Racket again).
>
>Hmm.. so all our homework so far has been rackets.. that's funny!
>> >afraid to fail. I did ask a lady out and she said yes :-) but later on she
>> >changed it to no :...-( Looks like she wasn't authentic that first time
>> around.
>>
>> Perhaps she just had an attack of her story (whatever it is), and decided
>> (as opposed to chose) the "safe route".
>
>Yup.. maybe she got hurt (which is story, but she doesn't know that..)
>> again. She can only say no. She might say no many times (it might be part
>> of her story that unless someone is willing to take at least x (where x is
>> 1...n) rejections, then they aren't serious enough to be worth spending any
>> time on). Who know's what story she has (she probably even doesn't and no
>> one else can possibly).
>
>Duh.. I just tried to make one up last paragraph! Ha ha! Not only do
>we write stories for ourselves, we write them for others!
>
>thank you! that's more specific and measurable about being specific and
>measurable!
>Been "doing time" in the computer room.. Think I'll call the boss and
>ask him if I can come in late tomorrow morning... Bet he says
>"yes!" ;-)
>> (model) we are using to model the world in which exist, is no longer
>> sufficiently accurate to meet our needs (paradoxes cannot exist in reality -
>> reality simply is what it is - paradoxes can only exist in our models of
>> reality - and indicate that we need to update the model to understand
>> reality more closely).
>
>Wow! That was well-put.. easy to understand. Now all I have to do is
>distinguish when a paradox occurs.
http://www.murphy.gen.nz/murphy
>> (not nearly so often as they coach me but <<g>>).
>
>I'm still new at this.. so I'll get into it (August 96 forum..)
>>
>> You're onto it.
>
>It's funny how many times people scare themselves.. there's a monster under
>the bed! Aaaargh! Mommy!
PERSON B - July 2000
Have a look at what you wrote me, and find the rackets in it.
(I'll leave some space, and then continue - you make your
own judgement, then compare notes with me later on).
Here is what you wrote:
Some of my thoughts follow:
I get stopped and upset and find that I am looking for answers to give to people.
If they're not looking for answers, then they wont see them, even if they're right there in front of them.
Trying to heal them.
Absolve them of their crap.
I have already transformed many people's lives by me just being who I'm being.
I am waiting for some epiphany to happen for me, you know?
It is not anything that can be attained and kept, it is something that is achieved by the exercise of will, and the will must be exercised each time to achieve it.
Selfish, is that?
To do so while meeting the needs of others is the true art of living.
Life is confusing to me and I don't know what it is I truly want.
My direction has not become clearer due to this work and my love life is in utter shambles.
Where is it you want to be?
Why?
What are the things that bring you greatest joy?
How does being where you want to be bring those things to you?
Is it really where you want to be?
What else might be possible?
In a world of infinite choice - what would you choose?
Perhaps it is not getting somewhere that is important, perhaps it is simply making the best of the journey.
Am I not taking responsibility for something?